Re: Cashless ... or witless?

by adelaide Sat Feb 25, 2023 12:17 am

guildfordbat wrote:No upset but you have already told that story on this forum.

Oh dear, a repeat - must get my job application in to the BBC.

I really can't remember having done that, which is a bit worrying!

by Chinaman Sat Feb 25, 2023 7:20 am

adelaide wrote:It also undercuts businesses which are paying VAT. Fair chance also that if they are dodging VAT they're not declaring it for income tax either. All of which means the rest of us pay more!

Well I don't agree with the income tax bit, but V.A.T. in most cases is a 20% rip off that helps to cripple small business particularly at present. I don't blame them at all for avoiding it. Blimey we even pay 5% on our grossly inflated energy bills.

by Longshanks Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:55 am

I very rarely use cash, except to pay my paper bill and the window cleaners. In fact, I been visiting NZ since the early 80s and people were using credit cards to buy a pint of milk back then via EFTPOS. At least with cash, there's a chance of keeping track of spending, which I don't seem to do when waving a card in the pub. As some young people told me, lightheartedly I hope, once the boomers have gone, we can move on without their dead weight holding the country back.

by Chinaman Sat Feb 25, 2023 12:55 pm

And I agree somewhat with the boomers bit...in about 20 years. The problem now, as many have said here, is that they are trying to hasten technology on many people who can't or indeed won't use it, without in many cases giving a choice. And it ain't just the boomers.

by adelaide Sat Feb 25, 2023 1:08 pm

Chinaman wrote:
adelaide wrote:It also undercuts businesses which are paying VAT. Fair chance also that if they are dodging VAT they're not declaring it for income tax either. All of which means the rest of us pay more!

Well I don't agree with the income tax bit, but V.A.T. in most cases is a 20% rip off that helps to cripple small business particularly at present. I don't blame them at all for avoiding it. Blimey we even pay 5% on our grossly inflated energy bills.

Getting OT here but how would you bridge the gap if VAT were no longer providing 16% or so of tax income? Apart from the tabloid answer of all those lazy civil servants (not) working from home.

Most countries have some form of tax on sale of goods and services. We had purchase tax before we had VAT.

by Chinaman Sat Feb 25, 2023 7:22 pm

Not really wanting to drone on with this OT, but the problem with VAT is that it penalises lower income earners and is a bureaucratic pain in the bum for business particularly the small ones. The rich don't notice it because they pay in theory more tax anyway. I'm fact many avoid most income tax by paying good accountants to keep just within the law. So who does it benefit? The Government. Certainly not me or my sole trader boiler serviceman! 10% perhaps, but any more is legalised thieving.

by Longshanks Sun Feb 26, 2023 8:09 am

The government needs the tax income and will get it one way or another. They spend it on services and infrastructure.

by Chinaman Sun Feb 26, 2023 10:12 am

Longshanks wrote:The government needs the tax income and will get it one way or another. They spend it on services and infrastructure.

Debatable that, but this isn't really the right forum.

by adelaide Sun Feb 26, 2023 11:32 am

Chinaman wrote:Not really wanting to drone on with this OT, but the problem with VAT is that it penalises lower income earners and is a bureaucratic pain in the bum for business particularly the small ones. The rich don't notice it because they pay in theory more tax anyway. I'm fact many avoid most income tax by paying good accountants to keep just within the law. So who does it benefit? The Government. Certainly not me or my sole trader boiler serviceman! 10% perhaps, but any more is legalised thieving.

Other business are also put at risk by VAT fraud.

If I ran a small boiler servicing business which took pains to pay the right tax, I would be well annoyed if I was forced out of business) by businesses which were committing a criminal offence by intentionally not doing so.

by Chinaman Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:55 pm

adelaide wrote:
Chinaman wrote:Not really wanting to drone on with this OT, but the problem with VAT is that it penalises lower income earners and is a bureaucratic pain in the bum for business particularly the small ones. The rich don't notice it because they pay in theory more tax anyway. I'm fact many avoid most income tax by paying good accountants to keep just within the law. So who does it benefit? The Government. Certainly not me or my sole trader boiler serviceman! 10% perhaps, but any more is legalised thieving.

Other business are also put at risk by VAT fraud.

If I ran a small boiler servicing business which took pains to pay the right tax, I would be well annoyed if I was forced out of business) by businesses which were committing a criminal offence by intentionally not doing so.

Point is he does pay the "right" tax which makes it such a struggle for a small business. It's the rich that "get away" with it. VAT is a con in my book however it's portrayed. Come on, the Government rip the public off every which way but loose.

by adelaide Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:34 pm

Chinaman wrote:Point is he does pay the "right" tax which makes it such a struggle for a small business. It's the rich that "get away" with it. VAT is a con in my book however it's portrayed. Come on, the Government rip the public off every which way but loose.

And my point is that the biggest threat to his business is competitors choosing not to pay the right tax and thereby being able to undercut him.

I am struggling a bit with your logic. VAT is regressive taxation, so wrong. OK - but although you haven't actually said where else you would raise the money, it sounds as if your alternative is to load nearly all the tax burden onto income tax, despite the rich "getting away" with that because they employ clever accountants. Even the rich have a problem dodging VAT on what they buy.

by Chinaman Sun Feb 26, 2023 7:39 pm

No VAT is a beuracraric nightmare for small businesses which is why most will take cash. They still pay income tax because they do a tax return so don't really undercut anything. And the rich can afford VAT anyway as most of them avoid most income tax unlike the small man. VAT was 8% in 1974 by the way. At the very least they should remove the 5% from energy bills and supplement that by slamming the rip.off suppliers with an profits tax.

by adelaide Sun Feb 26, 2023 11:14 pm

Chinaman wrote:No VAT is a beuracraric nightmare for small businesses which is why most will take cash. They still pay income tax because they do a tax return so don't really undercut anything. And the rich can afford VAT anyway as most of them avoid most income tax unlike the small man. VAT was 8% in 1974 by the way. At the very least they should remove the 5% from energy bills and supplement that by slamming the rip.off suppliers with an profits tax.

Oh come on! If it is cash it likely doesn't go through the books so it likely doesn't have income tax on it either. I expect they pay some income tax (to pay nothing would be suspicious in itself) but maybe not all that they should. Getting a huge illicit competitive advantage is a much more compelling reason than the supposed bureaucracy. The self-employment income tax form is much worse!

by Chinaman Mon Feb 27, 2023 1:36 am

Really? Ever seen a VAT return? It's not about tax. It's all about being ripped off by 20% VAT!

by adelaide Mon Feb 27, 2023 11:21 am

Chinaman wrote:Really? Ever seen a VAT return?

Er, yes. For anyone doing much the same stuff all the time and who maintains up-to-date accounts, it really should be pretty straightforward, even without the software that is supposed to make it even easier.

Chinaman wrote:It's not about tax. It's all about being ripped off by 20% VAT!

A curious compartmentalisation, to me at any rate. If you raise the tax some other way, you would be paying one-sixth less for your purchases out of considerably lower income (some would come out ahead, some behind).

by Chinaman Mon Feb 27, 2023 12:10 pm

End of debate.

by Badges Mon Feb 27, 2023 12:51 pm

TAKE IT PRIVATE CHAPS FFS.

by mphillimore Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:33 am

adelaide wrote:
RB wrote:
adelaide wrote:I just wasn't keen on anything which put the next generation off trying cricket.

Speaking as a young fogie, I have not used cash for a long time now. There are plenty of things that could prevent the "next generation" from enjoying cricket, but cashlessness is not one of them.

RB - Cashless, agreed. Getting to the ground and finding you can't get in despite thousands of empty seats, that would be another matter.

Mind you, we oldies will be laughing at you when the internet is down for a week...

"When the internet is down for a week"

I dont think the Internet works like that.....in fact I can tell you the internet doesn't work like that. Your individual connection might go down, but the whole internet, which basically encompasses the world these days, is not going to.

The Oval has been cashless since prior to Covid has it not?

I don't see the hassle really, its just feet dragging - how is it not more convenient to have 1 card which you can tap with to pay for everything with as opposed to needing to go to the cash machine, take it out, count it and do this over and over. its just a "oh this is new and therefore I'm going to go rargh and not learn or do it because its better the old way". If people choose not to have phones or internet access then you can still buy on the gate.

If the ground did not make it obvious it was cashless, then yeh fine then there's an issue - but everyone knows it is so you budget and plan accordingly. Mountain and molehills comes to mind.

by adelaide Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:53 am

mphillimore wrote:

"When the internet is down for a week"

I dont think the Internet works like that.....in fact I can tell you the internet doesn't work like that. Your individual connection might go down, but the whole internet, which basically encompasses the world these days, is not going to.

I didn't realise that it had become compulsory to include a smiley to indicate a joke.

mphillimore wrote:The Oval has been cashless since prior to Covid has it not?

mphillimore wrote:If the ground did not make it obvious it was cashless, then yeh fine then there's an issue - but everyone knows it is so you budget and plan accordingly. Mountain and molehills comes to mind.

"Everyone" does not know. Fine if it is your regular ground. A few years ago I went to a match at St Helens ground in Swansea. Antiquated but a lovely view of the sea. If I were to go there now, would I really be obliged to check in advance how (or even if) I could pay on the day? That is extra hassle and could put off spectators that cricket desperately needs. (As it happens I got a freebie indirectly from a player but that's another story.)[?quote]

mphillimore wrote:I don't see the hassle really, its just feet dragging - how is it not more convenient to have 1 card which you can tap with to pay for everything with as opposed to needing to go to the cash machine, take it out, count it and do this over and over. its just a "oh this is new and therefore I'm going to go rargh and not learn or do it because its better the old way". If people choose not to have phones or internet access then you can still buy on the gate.

Largely agreed, it is much more convenient and these days I rarely use cash but is it that old fogeyish to want to retain choice for myself - and more to the point for others who are less good with tech? Or for those whose finances are so stretched that using cards (because it is so easy) risks pushing them further into debt in a way that cash purchases cannot?

A side issue of contactless BTW is that you are rarely asked for a PIN. It is embarrassing when you get mixed up between the PINs for your cards on the rare occasions when it is sought. More to the point, a lot of stuff could be bought with a stolen card before the thief is asked for a PIN.

by Chinaman Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:15 am

Well I've been told if you go to Lords on the day you can't use a card or cash to buy a ticket, you have to do it on an app or in advance. It's about choice: I may have said this before but society is trying to run before it can walk. In 30 years time when all us oldies are dust it won't be a problem because people would have grown up with the technology. At the moment it clearly is NOT the case.
As for switching off the internet: never say never with tech. Every time someone says it can't be hacked (smart meters anyone?) someone will. Err...My 14 year old grandson can bounce a mobile phone signal off a satellite!

by Longshanks Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:46 am

Chatbot analysis of thread

I am so sick and tired of cashless cards! It's like we're living in a dystopian future where everything is controlled by corporations. Cashless cards are a way for big businesses to track our spending and to control our lives.

There are so many problems with cashless cards. For one, they're not secure. Our personal information is stored on these cards and it can be easily stolen. And once our information is stolen, it can be used to make fraudulent purchases in our name.

Cashless cards are also a way for businesses to track our spending. They can see what we're buying and when we're buying it. This information can be used to manipulate us into spending more money.

And finally, cashless cards are a way for businesses to control our lives. They can decide what we can and can't buy. They can also decide how much money we can spend. This is a violation of our freedom and our privacy.

I urge you to boycott cashless cards. Don't let big businesses control your life. Use cash instead. It's the only way to keep your money safe and to protect your privacy.

I don't understand why some people are so willing to give up their freedom and their privacy for the convenience of a cashless card. It's not worth it. Cashless cards are a danger to our freedom and our privacy. We need to boycott them and demand cash instead.

by Longshanks Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:48 am

Not my views. I hardly use cash and I'm probably older than most of you.

by Chinaman Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:43 pm

Longshanks wrote:Not my views. I hardly use cash and I'm probably older than most of you.

I agree. You know you can go on about "cashless cards" but in reality it's just a credit or debit card that we've all been using for decades. If your worried about safety, access to your information and issues put forward above then don't use the internet, don't have a smart phone, don't have any mobile phone because you can be tracked anywhere whether it's on it off, don't use a landline because who knows whose listening in, don't have any device in your home like smart meters or cctv...yes exactly. And even if that was possible your on camera every time you go down the high street. Conspiracy theories? Not these- reality.
(Oh don't forget the tracker in the Covid vaccine!)

by adelaide Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:18 pm

Chinaman wrote:
Longshanks wrote:Not my views. I hardly use cash and I'm probably older than most of you.

I agree. You know you can go on about "cashless cards" but in reality it's just a credit or debit card that we've all been using for decades. If your worried about safety, access to your information and issues put forward above then don't use the internet, don't have a smart phone, don't have any mobile phone because you can be tracked anywhere whether it's on it off, don't use a landline because who knows whose listening in, don't have any device in your home like smart meters or cctv...yes exactly. And even if that was possible your on camera every time you go down the high street. Conspiracy theories? Not these- reality.
(Oh don't forget the tracker in the Covid vaccine!)

Straw man sighted! I use all that stuff, just not exclusively. Wanting to retain the option[i] of cash does not mean that someone believes in any of those conspiracy theories.

Clearly devices [i]are listening in. I got an ad for something I'd just been standing near in a shop the other day without a word being spoken so it must have been based on very precise location, but by and large I regard that sort of thing as vaguely amusing rather than as a sign that we are all doomed.

by Chinaman Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:35 am

Yes and my point was you can't isolate yourself completely from the modern world whether you believe in conspiracy theories or not, and indeed what is "safe" or isn't.
Today's conspiracy theory: statue of Elvis found on Mars

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