Re: Yorkshire CCC - what a disgrace

by adelaide Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:29 am

Badges wrote:
Badges wrote:I have to say that Martyn Moxon is one of the nicest,friendliest,approachable people that i've ever met.

Jack Brooks is another.

Ask Steve...

by Walter Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:51 am

Personal anecdotes along the lines of "well, I met so and so once and he was very nice to me" are quite spectacularly pointless in this matter.

by adelaide Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:49 pm

Badges wrote:
Badges wrote:I have to say that Martyn Moxon is one of the nicest,friendliest,approachable people that i've ever met.

Jack Brooks is another.

"Steve" might beg to differ.

by Chinaman Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:36 pm

A few people on here who are squeaky clean, and have never made any mistakes through life? Mmmm. Interesting.

by Walter Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:46 pm

That's a very peculiar assumption to jump to. Who here has suggested they are personally infallible?

My criticism of inept and self-protecting administrators and of the bullying, ignorant actions of some players is, of course, in no way an indication that I am without faults myself.

by Badges Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:33 pm

Walter wrote:Personal anecdotes along the lines of "well, I met so and so once and he was very nice to me" are quite spectacularly pointless in this matter.

Please accept my humble apologies for my spectacularly pointless anecdote.Perhaps i could send you my posts first in future in order to get your approval?

by Badges Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:37 pm

Or perhaps i should just ignore you along with a couple of others that i cannot stand despite only ever "meeting" them on message boards.

by Walter Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:14 pm

Badges wrote:Or perhaps i should just ignore you along with a couple of others that i cannot stand despite only ever "meeting" them on message boards.

You "cannot stand" me ? Seriously? That's quite a bizarre reaction.

You can, quite naturally, post whatever you wish online but it is naive to think it should pass without any comment, be it critical or approving.

by Chinaman Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:31 pm

Walter wrote:That's a very peculiar assumption to jump to. Who here has suggested they are personally infallible?

My criticism of inept and self-protecting administrators and of the bullying, ignorant actions of some players is, of course, in no way an indication that I am without faults myself.

Well people feel very quick to criticise others mistakes in life with a rather holier than thou attitude. I just see Brooke has been disciplined for some iffy comment he made. In 2011. Rather illustrates my point I think.

by Walter Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:41 pm

Again, I reiterate that no-one is attempting to claim holier-than-thou-ness. Serious mistakes should have serious consequences. Is ten years indicative of being "quick to criticise"? I'd call it dragging one's feet and trying to pretend it never happened at all.

by Chinaman Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:07 pm

The problem is though that now days, the slightest slip of the tongue seems to offend someone, even 10 years ago that rarely happened. But when they persecute many people from say the 1960s for being non PC by today's standards I find it difficult to drag young guys over the coals for some of this reported stuff.
Even been in a sports changing room?

by Coatesy Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:54 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/59338118

oh the irony

seems he wishes to get rid of an issue that he was part of

by Chinaman Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:09 pm

Coatesy wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/59338118

oh the irony

seems he wishes to get rid of an issue that he was part of

You couldn't make this up could you. I wonder if he will be regarded as racist? It usually doesn't work the other way round.

by Walter Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:26 pm

Chinaman wrote:
Coatesy wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/59338118

oh the irony

seems he wishes to get rid of an issue that he was part of

You couldn't make this up could you. I wonder if he will be regarded as racist? It usually doesn't work the other way round.

Yes, of course it was racist and he has accepted it as such immediately and without excuse.

"It doesn't work the other way round" ? You do seem to be disconcertingly keen on making this about whiney minorities upsetting the status quo.

by adelaide Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:33 pm

Chinaman wrote:
Coatesy wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/59338118

oh the irony

seems he wishes to get rid of an issue that he was part of

You couldn't make this up could you. I wonder if he will be regarded as racist? It usually doesn't work the other way round.

You did of course read the bit which said he was deeply ashamed of the tweets (mind you, he could hardly say anything else), not doing a Gary Ballance and attempting to justify them as banter. Of course the tweets are being seen as racist. Have you seen anyone suggesting that they are not?

by Chinaman Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:33 pm

Walter wrote:
Chinaman wrote:
Coatesy wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/59338118

oh the irony

seems he wishes to get rid of an issue that he was part of

You couldn't make this up could you. I wonder if he will be regarded as racist? It usually doesn't work the other way round.

Yes, of course it was racist and he has accepted it as such immediately and without excuse.

"It doesn't work the other way round" ? You do seem to be disconcertingly keen on making this about whiney minorities upsetting the status quo.

Whiney minorities? Don't get your point, and you didn't get mine either.

by Walter Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:49 pm

I think you are being somewhat disingenuous, but if not then please explain yourself more clearly.

by Chinaman Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:25 pm

I just trust he will be disciplined in the same way as all these other guys who posted silly tweets and Facebook posts 10 years ago when they were immature teenagers, Brooks being the latest. Disingenuous? No I just like the same rules applied to all and he is part of the problem. As I've said before there are no winners here, but at least it might spell the end of Harrison and the restructuring of the ECB. And that's a big bonus.

by Walter Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:19 pm

As I mentioned earlier, Brooks was 27 at the time - a reasonably sentient fully grown adult, and by no description an immature teenager.

Rafiq is not employed professionally in cricket any longer, he now makes a self-employed living in the catering business I believe, so I'm not sure who you expect him to be disciplined by. Perhaps he may lose some customers.

At the very least with this anti-Semitic tweet, he has owned it without hesitation and admitted it is utterly inexcusable. The Jewish Board of Deputies have accepted this as sincere and recognised he is genuinely contrite. That would seem to be a remarkably good handling of a humiliating episode for him and effectively the end of the matter for all concerned. Compare and contrast with how Ballance, Hales, Vaughan, Hutton, Arthur, etc, have all shamelessly dealt with the accusations made against them: Lack of recall and/or Indignant denial and/or trying to justify the unjustifiable "because that's just what we did then'.

Rafiq has said throughout the whole process that he had done many things he is now ashamed about to try and be "one of the lads" , most of all keeping quiet about it and saying nothing for years. He has also continually stressed that it is not about hanging specific individuals out to dry, but rather about highlighting the faults and failures of the current processes at work in cricket's hierarchies. Harrison is paid to be personally responsible for some of that, and his gross ineptitude, buck passing, and utter spinelessness was highlighted in the DCMS hearing so he may well be got rid of, but his departure would be meaningless if the processes his successors take over are not changed fundamentally.

by Chinaman Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:41 pm

Pity he didn't bring the matter of the tweet up during the process. Why wait until later? Presumably he wanted to keep it quiet until someone probably dug it up as they always do on social media. No I didn't know he'd left cricket but you know society changes: what is often unacceptable now wasn't in the past. It doesn't make it right but you can't change history to suit today's interpretation. On a much broader note I just think that the term "racism" is often used far too liberally to justify a whole host of issues to suit particular beliefs and actions. Maybe it needs redefining.

by Chinaman Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:43 pm

Walter, an interesting discussion about a touchy subject that hasn't got into a shouting match!

by adelaide Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:30 am

Chinaman wrote:Pity he didn't bring the matter of the tweet up during the process. Why wait until later? Presumably he wanted to keep it quiet until someone probably dug it up as they always do on social media. No I didn't know he'd left cricket but you know society changes: what is often unacceptable now wasn't in the past. It doesn't make it right but you can't change history to suit today's interpretation. On a much broader note I just think that the term "racism" is often used far too liberally to justify a whole host of issues to suit particular beliefs and actions. Maybe it needs redefining.

Maybe Rafiq had forgotten what he tweeted at 19. Maybe he hadn't but didn't think they were still there to be found.

While I agree that we shouldn't go too heavy on stuff from teenagers from that long ago (Robinson or Rafiq) the stuff we are talking about is not just the outpourings from very young men. I would say that it has been unacceptable to most people for more than a couple of decades. Thinking it is unacceptable is one thing, of course, but saying it out loud is quite another, particularly if a knuckle sandwich is a likely result. If the senior pros had spoken up ... but they seem to have been leading it in the first place, and management didn't seem to care.

I know you wrote "on a much broader note" but I'm not sure how much of what has emerged would get redefined out of racism. The Vaughan recommending Williamson thing doesn't sound remotely racist to me but I suppose if you are being subjected to racism for long enough you can it's human nature to end up seeing everything around you as inspired by racism.

by Badges Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:15 am

Alex Hales shot JR.

by paultpm Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:11 am

Badges wrote:Alex Hales shot JR.

by Chinaman Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:03 pm

Will someone please apologise for apologising?
Soon someone will have to apologise for 1932's Bodyline tactics.
What a load of rubbish.

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